Luger Serial Number Lookup
I want to figure out what year this German Luger (9mm) was made, as well as some possible history. Passed down from my Grandfather.
Complete serial number tables can be found in Jan Still's 'Imperial Lugers' and 'Third Reich Lugers', respectively. Commercial serial numbering began with 1 in 1901, and continued to the 92,000 range in 1921. In that year DWM converted to numbering in the military style (four digits followed by a letter), beginning with the letter suffix i. Find the script letter, which follows the serial number, and record it onto the paper. The script letter denotes the production series of your Luger. Look at the top of the pistol. Note and record the numerical code just before the start of the exposed barrel. This refers to the Luger's particular make. May 09, 2013 Based on some minimal research it appears your luger was made between 1906 and 1914. Here is the direct info from the website. The info is based on the marking above the serial number.
A Luger can have mismatched parts, non matching date on the holster, replacement magazine, and still be completely 'original', meaning that is the way it was captured. It just isn't the 'original' way it first left the factory!42 on the chamber could be the year, but 's/42' on the toggle means only that the gun was made under military contract. I have one so marked, with a 1936 date on the chamber. I am not certain about '42' guns, they were the last standard production year, and I don't have my Luger book handy right now, but I can tell you that earlier Lugers, if they have the date on them, use 4 digits (1922, 1936, etc.). Not all have the year marked on them.Good, clear pictures are a big help.The 'three lines with something that appears to be crossing in the middle, with 135 just under' is the WaA Pruf, (the Waffen Amt Pruf - Nazi acceptance mark) meaning the gun was used during the Nazi era.
The mark is actually a small Nazi Eagle, and the 135 code but is often not struck cleanly so it may not look like the eagle. The 3 lines are the wings.After the holidays, I'll do some checking my books (again, good pics will be a big help), and get back to you.The holster marks are not my area of expertise, but JMECKART is likely the maker, and 'ULM' is a German city. Not sure about the rest. Originally, all military contract Lugers were dated on the front ring with the full date, e.g., 1918 or 1937.
By 1941, to save some time and tooling, the date was reduced to the last two numbers, 1941 became just '41', 1942 just '42. That is a bit confusing as Mauser, the only maker at that time, had earlier been assigned the code number '42' to be used instead of the actual factory name (for security reasons).
AFAIK, there were no '42/42' guns but there were '41/42' marked Lugers, made by Mauser in 1941.Jim. From what you have said, the gun's full serial number is 8136d.They did not use more than four digit serial numbers and they made a lot more than 9999 Lugers, so there is a letter suffix after the four digits of every gun except the first block produced that year. They started over every year, so you have to have the year, the number, and the letter to fully identify the exact gun.A nice rig, worth a good bit of money if in as good condition as it sounds.Jim, it looks to me like a 41/42 Luger would be a rarity, they started using the byf manufacturer's code sometime that year.You won't likely see a 1934 or 1935 dated Luger, they were still being secretive about rearmament and coded those years as 'K date' and 'G date' with a letter instead of a number on the receiver ring.I once had a 1936 S/42, also a Mauser gun with their code for that year. Update:The 'backward U.S. Looking flag symbol' is this symbol here. The right half (including eagle) is VERY diffcult to make out, but the symbol here below is definitely it. The Swastika is rather easily seen.on the gun itself, it looks like thisam also very intrigued about the Holster.
Thanks for looking.Again, pictures will be uploaded after Christmas. 42 byf 8136d was made in 1940.the holster, if original to the gun would be dates within 2 or 3 yrs maxthe holster you describe is a common repro likely made in the 1960's for the expanding american market for lugers.i have multiple holsters just like yours that i know to be 'fakes'. The tanning process was purposely altered to make the holsters appear old. Some were even mechanically 'aged'.you see the same makers stamp on repro broomhandle leather. I have one that has fooled the 'experts', up until they see the makers mark.
Mauser Luger Serial Number Search
42 byf 8136d was made in 1940.the holster, if original to the gun would be dates within 2 or 3 yrs maxthe holster you describe is a common repro likely made in the 1960's for the expanding american market for lugers.i have multiple holsters just like yours that i know to be 'fakes'. The tanning process was purposely altered to make the holsters appear old. Some were even mechanically 'aged'.you see the same makers stamp on repro broomhandle leather. I have one that has fooled the 'experts', up until they see the makers mark.Thanks for the post, much appreciated!
How do you know it was made in 1940 and not 1942? If so, then what does the 42 mean? 36 and 42 are both stamped on the same piece.As for the holster, I have no idea either way, and it could definitely be a fake. However, what makes you believe it is a possibility? Is it the '1916' or the maker 'JMECKART'? Also, if not original to the gun, could it still be an original (as in not a fake) holster, relative to the time period but not the exact gun per se?Obviously you'll be able to help more once I upload pics, but are there any tell all signs I should look for in the meantime?
The serial number and d suffix dates it to 1940. The germans generally stuck to 4 digit serial numbers and changed the letter suffix each 9999 made,now, before anyone flames me, there were some 5 digit serial numbers made, but they are the exceptions.as far as the holster, it very well COULD be an original.
The repros are copies of an original, so there must be some originals around. But experience tells be it was probably made much later than the gun.pictures will help. Get some close ups of the pistol and holster markings if possibleoh, about the 36; the last two digits of the serial number. Should appear on most individual parts of the gun.
The serial number and d suffix dates it to 1940.I don't believe that is correct. The '42' over the chamber would indicate a manufacture date of 1942, while 'byf' stamped on the middle toggle indicates Mauser Werke.
1942 was, in fact, the de facto final year of Luger mass production.Also, five digit serial numbers were primarily used on commercial pistols made before and after the first world war, as well as some very early foreign military contracts.Barring any other information, your holster is a leftover from WW I that was either reissued or picked up at a later date in the U.S. To go with the pistol by whomever brought it back from Europe.
Eckart of Ulm, Donau, was a holster manufacturer during the first world war.The 'identically shaped circles' you refer to are swirl marks left by the end mill that milled out the relieved portion behind the toggle ramps. I think you are thinking of '42' code guns which superceded 'S/42' coded guns. '42,' when applied as a code, was a contract number for guns assigned to Mauser Werke. (The speculation being that the contract would end in 1942.) (The S/42 code superceded the 'S,' 'K' and 'G' date Lugers made in the 1930s in violation of the Treaty of Versailles.)'42' code guns are stamped thusly on the center toggle, with the date over the chamber, i.e. These are generally referred to by collectors as '40/42 code' or '41/42 code' Lugers.Guns that are stamped 'byf' on the center toggle and have a '40,' '41' or '42' number stamped over the chamber were made in those years, i.e. 1940, 1941 or 1942.At least that is how I understand it from all my reference books.
Apparently serial numbers were repeated many times so there could be a hundred with that number.+1 what everyone has already said on the topic. A while back a pair were seized as evidence locally in relation to a burglary and running Luger serial numbers through NCIC is basically pointless. I think each pistol popped up five or six stolen hits going back years, without any way to tell from the information available if they were actually involved or not.And the problem, of course, is that, for decades, most people, including LEO, have been ignorant of the fact that the letter suffix is part of the serial number. In military production, each block of numbers went from 0-9999.So, after the initial block of 1-9999, probably way back in 1910, the next block was 1a-9999a, then 2b-9999b, etc.So, out of the millions of military P.08 pistols produced, every block of 10,000 numbers had a serial number that would match another UNLESS you included the letter suffix.
Ok folks, here are some pictures.For the Symbols, after some research The first is the Waa Pruf (thanks AMP), the next I could not get a quality picture of because of the small size, but again appears to be the number 13 followed by a lowercase b. After that is the eagle over swastika as I have in the previous comments, followed by another, smaller, eagle over swastika on the barrel (tho much clearer then the previous). All symbols in alignment.Here's the gun42 on chamberis just about on every partcolor is actually much more brown (deep), rather than the blackish that appears in the photo.markingshttp://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=65647&stc=1&d=.
Hope this helps a bit, tho the pics are small. I am curious as to what the possible '13b' looking symbol could be, but like I said, too small to get a clear picture with what I was using.There seems to be some debate on what the 42 actually means, and when this gun was actually produced.Also, curious as to what this set up could be worth. It would never be sold, and I intend to create a showcase along with a 1944 US GOV Ithaca 1911, but ive seen some set ups like this (the luger and case) going for upwards of $2500. Any ideas?Thanks for looking. Based on what you have said, and the two small pics that show up for me (the last two), I have a tentative ID for you. Your gun has wooden grips, right? (hard to tell from the tiny magazine pic)Anyway, here goes (and this is just a best guess, you understand)Mauser byf code 42 datemade specifically for military sales to Germanytoggle inscription 'byf'chamber has 2 digit code '42'checkered walnut gripsMilitary acceptance and proof marksNo sear safetyestimated quantity made 89,000rating 'uncommon'Mfgd by Mauser werke, Oberndorf'new type' toggle, with flat, checkerd knobstoggle mark 'byf'4 inch (100mm) barrel, chambered for 9mm Parabellumframe is the late, short type, with stock lug, wide trigger and narrow trigger guard.
Exactly what I was looking for and more. Much appreciated. The 13b I do believe is indeed a faded 135. Wood grips, not black plastic. 36 is on everything, which surprised me.
Im still not too sure on the holster and tools (whether original), but that might be difficult to determine. Wonder if this ol family tale of 'picked up off a German Soldier' might actually be true. I think this and the Ithaca together make a great little case!I would, in most certainty, never shoot it, but would today's standard 9x19 work? Im not at all familiar with the parabellum.Are the pictures showing now?
Sorry, still no pics.A Luger in sound mechanical shape will shoot modern 9mm Parabellum (9x19mm) ammo, BUT, do NOT shoot any +p (or above) level ammo! The original 9mm Luger loading was a 124gr FMJ @ 1050fps! The standard loading has been increased a bit since 1908, and stuff that runs 1150fps is the common level today.Lugers are widely known as tempermental guns, often not working reliably on the ammo they were intended to use. Modern ball ammo, 124gr or 115gr should be fine (as far as stress levels on the gun), but may not function 100% reliably, just because it's a Luger.;)I have a mismatched 1936 gun, and shoot it once in a while with 124gr ball. It will usually go most of a box without a malfunction, and some times, even more. But it does like to jam sometimes, too.Don't shoot hot +p+ stuff, and JHP bullets may not feed.Now, someone will come along in a bit, and tell you that the hot 'nato spec' ball ammo is what the Germans used, and what the gun was made for, shoot it and be cool. That is partially true, the Luger should handle the stuff, after all, it did in WW II, right?
Well, yes, they did. And that was 65+ years ago, when the gun was still in production, and replacement parts and service were provided for.Some Lugers will run ok on US ammo, many need European ammo, to run right, at all. Because, for generations, US made 9mm ammo was lower pressure than the common US made stuff.Today, with the 9mm Luger (9x19, 9mm Parabellum) dominating the world market, US ammo is right up there with all the rest.Just stay away from the hot self defense ammo. Not because the Luger won't be safe, but because the Luger is old, and no older gun should be strained just for shooting enjoyment.
You wouldn't run +p ammo in that Ithaca marked 1911A1, would you? You shoot the GI ball it was made for (or commercial/handloaded equivalent).
Same with the Luger.Also be aware that the is some (foreign) surplus ammo that is made for submachineguns. This stuff is way hotter than regular pistol ammo. And, it may not be marked as such!
I had a friend who battered his Browning High Power (actually peened the barrel locking lugs!:eek:) with some of that stuff, because he didn't know any better. Stick with quality ammo from a known maker, and you should be fine.And yes, with the 1911 it would make a great display. A few cartridges, medals, flags/insignia of both sides in the display make it even better.Just be aware that some ignorant individuals think any display of WW II German militaria means you are a Nazi sympathizer.
They are idiots, of course, but they are out there, and can be vocal idiots, sometimes.With both guns together, those kinds of idiots are less likely to gripe, but you still might meet one. Don't get riled, if you do, we know what its really all about, even if they don't.Good luck with your display, and if you ever get the picture thing worked out, let us see them, please! So, as stated before, you basically have a 'byf 42' Parabellum made by Mauser Werke in 1942.Yep, that's what I looks like to me. The last year in the war when the Germans were making new Lugers.
As you can see, if you compare the 42 to a pre war Luger, you can see the difference in the finish, along with a couple other minor things to reduce the amount of time & labor that went into a finished gun. But thats all that happened, basically. Rather than take additional shortcuts (where they could) in making the Luger, the Germans just stopped new production and switched the resources to other weapons, while maintaining the Lugers already in service.GoldenState's gun appears to be all matching numbers (what we can see on the outside, anyway), indicating that it never went through any kind of rework where parts got changed.It appears to be an 'honest' gun, meaning in just the shape it ought to be, for what it is. Its an uncommon, but not a very rare Luger. And with still matching numbers (except for the magazine, which may be correct for the gun) it is about as valuable as it can get for that model with that level of finish.
Hard to tell from the pics (which I can now see) but the grips didn't look too good. It could just be the picture, though.Guns like this usually have some kind of family story to go with them, about how the gun was captured, usually. And a lot of them are true. The lack of any importer's marking tells us that the gun was in the US before 1968.
And Lugers were the real 'trophy' lots of GIs sought after.Now, Grampa could have won it in a poker game on the troopship home, but somebody captured it, and it could have been him. That happened, too.;) And a lot of Lugers got sold in the US by importers before the law required them to be marked.No matter exactly how the gun (any gun) gets into family history, once it is,Treating it respectfully shows respect for the family member it represents.
This is how things become heirlooms.GoldenState's Luger is still pretty valuable, I would not use it as a 'shooter'. If you just want to play, there are cheaper Lugers you can play with till they wear out. Now, taking it out and shoot ing it a little, once in a while, that won't hurt anything. Its value is only going to increase over time, cause, after all, there aren't ever going to be any more just like that one, ever.And his idea of a display with an Ithaca marked 1911A1 is a 'whole nother level' of respect, honoring not only his family's part, but all the people who fought, and history in general.And, after all, we won!:D.
Gentlemen,I purchased a byf 41 (Mauser) P08 9mm Luger pistol with matching serial numbers and in firing condition about 25 years ago. I believe it has been professionally re-blued and has gold straw trim out-lining the parts. There are the standard Waffen marks with the 4 digit serial numbers on the frame, breech, and barrel.
The last 2 digits of the serial numbers are on each of the other parts.Mauser Serial Number byf 41-XXXXIs there a way to trace the history as to who was assigned this pistol during WWII?Kind Regards,DonP.S.: I will take some photos and post them later. It is very impressive.
Hey Don,Would be great to see photos, but you are correct that it has been messed with. Straw finish was not part of the byf 41 production.I don't think you'll find who this was issued to based on only a s/n, unless some specific data has surfaced recently. One of the firearm bibles by Jan Still does not have that info.I think anyone that claims to know this information is only guessing, unless they have some specific data to back it up with. Not saying it doesn't exist, just saying I haven't seen it, as the latest firearms references I have date back a couple of decades (even though they're good ones.Best regards,J.